Curse

Xenrath · Apr 26, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Nerf = when something that is overpowered or too strong is reduced in effectiveness

Fix = when something is broken and not behaving how it's supposed to.

This is a fix, not a nerf. Not checked it but about time if it has been fixed.. now to fix the broken knights/enchanters and other bits of armour where one piece is as good as an entire suit

zamial · Apr 26, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Here's a tip for all the out of work stance tanks that don't have any idea of what to do next. Have a monk use Spellbreaker on you, you run out of everyone agro circle and hold agro. A smart monk will also cast Healing Seed and Vigorous Spirit on you. Now you can actually swing your axe or sword, you do remember how I hope, and heal yourself. All it takes is a second or two for the mobs to concentrate their wrath on the tank. They typically don't break agro unless some idiot casts an AoE spell.

Caster types of enemies will sometimes decide to wand the other parts of the group, but that doesn't do a whole lot of damage.

if you dont have any idea what hockster is talking about go into the fow with a fow tank and get "trained".this applys to everyone,not just the tank.as a rule of thumb leave 1 FULL AGRO CIRCLE of space between the tank and the ENTIRE PARTY.let the tank run in,count to 3 slowly,and then run up to the mops and heal/nuke/curse/(insert your thing here).the day of follow the tank into battle for ANYTHING is over.
on a slightly dif note thankyou a-net.now i will be able to find out first hand if the group im in is a smart good group or another noob run,and now i can quit the noob groups even faster,like at the 1st set of mops.

Maxiemonster · Apr 26, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

I'm glad about this. Finally I don't have to use these stupid bugs anymore (since I used to, just because it made FoW and SF alot easier), since that's what they were in my opinion.

pegasux · Apr 26, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

It'a about time! The book gear trick was senseless and annoying! Now casters/stances will have to learn what the heck an aggro is and how to avoid one. All to often casters are worse then warriors at drawing unwanted aggro. All that is missing now is a kick button to kick aggro monkies!

Guiken · Apr 26, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

The one thing that kinda irritates me about this whole thing. Warriors still dont have a way to "hold" aggro, in many mmos you'll see a system of hate, and tanks get abilities to focus the aggro on them, taunt/provoke/whatever but guildwars isnt exactly like that, MOST of the time a tank can hold aggro, but occasionally, even when everything is done right I've seen mobs spontaneously decide to break off and go for another member, and with some of the nasties in FoW and other places 1-2 hit killing party members it turns into a quick death. Now if you're careful, you go slow and aggro everything properly, odds are you will be fine. But lets face it, if you're in a full group Statistically, at -least- 1 out of those 8 PUG members arent gonna be that bright and then what? You're whole group is screwed because of one moron. You can argue that "Wars need skill, they need to learn what to do" all day long, but playing a stancer among many other profs, that isnt so much the problem as another group member pulling aggro from YOU and having no way to recover it effectivley. What this argument falls back more on is "Everyone will need to be skilled, or no one in your group, no matter how skilled will be allowed to enjoy this conent"... Seems kinda boring, like standing around HA for hours looking for your R3+ iway...

Mr_T_bot · Apr 26, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I was going to say Protector's Stance would help those with both chapters but its just a crappy Ward Against Melee.

GloryFox · Apr 26, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

YES! no more stupid book tick for FOW! GO ANET! GO BP FOW TEAMS!

hunter · Apr 26, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiken

The one thing that kinda irritates me about this whole thing. Warriors still dont have a way to "hold" aggro, in many mmos you'll see a system of hate, and tanks get abilities to focus the aggro on them, taunt/provoke/whatever but guildwars isnt exactly like that, MOST of the time a tank can hold aggro, but occasionally, even when everything is done right I've seen mobs spontaneously decide to break off and go for another member, and with some of the nasties in FoW and other places 1-2 hit killing party members it turns into a quick death. Now if you're careful, you go slow and aggro everything properly, odds are you will be fine. But lets face it, if you're in a full group Statistically, at -least- 1 out of those 8 PUG members arent gonna be that bright and then what? You're whole group is screwed because of one moron. You can argue that "Wars need skill, they need to learn what to do" all day long, but playing a stancer among many other profs, that isnt so much the problem as another group member pulling aggro from YOU and having no way to recover it effectivley. What this argument falls back more on is "Everyone will need to be skilled, or no one in your group, no matter how skilled will be allowed to enjoy this conent"... Seems kinda boring, like standing around HA for hours looking for your R3+ iway...

Thats because most other MMOs have raiding encounters, where its usually 20+ people vs a single boss that can 1 shot every person xpt for the main tank and takes 5 min to kill. Take wow for example. 90% of your time you are gonna face mobs with 10000x the amount of HP you have who can wipe your entire 40 man in 4 secs if left lose. In that scenario you need an agro system.

In GW, opponents are much weaker and realistic. Fights dont take that long and you are almost never fighting a 1 vs 40 scenario. Therefore you don't even need a hate system.

The second point is that the hate system makes for very boring battles. All you need is a very compenent tank and everyone else can be semi afk and get the encounters done w/o breaking a sweat. In GW if you are semi afk on a balanced UW run, you are dead.

And yes, in GW it takes skill to avoid these 2 hitting mobs from chaotic battles. Agro based battles in other MMOs, WoW in particular are just....boring

Snowman · Apr 26, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiken

The one thing that kinda irritates me about this whole thing. Warriors still dont have a way to "hold" aggro,

in many mmos you'll see a system of hate, and tanks get abilities to focus the aggro on them, taunt/provoke/whatever but guildwars isnt exactly like that,

Your right, Guildwars ISNT like that, which makes Guildwars different from other games in that its more difficult!... so what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiken

MOST of the time a tank can hold aggro, but occasionally, even when everything is done right I've seen mobs spontaneously decide to break off and go for another member, and with some of the nasties in FoW and other places 1-2 hit killing party members it turns into a quick death.

Its called AI!.. games are constantly striving to make their 'AI' engine more life like.. people are fed up with playing against 'stupid' AI Bots... we need a challenge!... if your not up for the challenge then GW isnt for you and you should try an easier MMO like WoW, where the AI is stupid and grinding is easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiken

"Everyone will need to be skilled, or no one in your group, no matter how skilled will be allowed to enjoy this conent"... Seems kinda boring, like standing around HA for hours looking for your R3+ iway...

If you cant handle a slightly improved AI, what hope do you have of fighting against a team of 8 real people if you can handle AI that isnt 'stuck' to attacking one player? ^^

Sid Doog · Apr 26, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I for one am curious to see what happens when people (and alot of them ) get frustrated because getting FOW armor isn't so easy any more

Ira Blinks · Apr 26, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

people will find a new ways to farm, true... what im afraid of is that those ways will not include eles

Ninetail Trickster · Apr 26, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Doog

I for one am curious to see what happens when people (and alot of them ) get frustrated because getting FOW armor isn't so easy any more

Ectoplasmic inflation ftw!
Figures. I finally gather my resolve to get my monk up and seared and all, and this happens. Now I'll like... have to play.... T_T

Ozric · Apr 26, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Bravo ANET!! I'd quit SF and FoW for the bore of the book/gear tricks. Ran SF with a full party last night for the first time in months w/out the gear. Had a great time!!

Oberon Shadowking · Apr 26, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Ok, so I think I get from this thread that A-Net has nerfed ORO five man gear farm, book farming in FoW, etc... So I'm with Snowman here:

WHY ISN'T IT DOCUMENTED??

I looked on Guildwars.com... updates page... no mention. Guildwiki seems to be down, or at least it's not working for me. Anyway, my point is: Why did I learn this from GwGuru instead of the regular site? I mean what the heck!

Personally, I'm sort of mixed feelings about the update. PuGs are gonna be REALLY hard to find with any skill. As if us tanks weren't misunderstood already, this is going to cause a LOT of bad blood between us poor tankers and everyone else. ("YOU STUPID TANK! Don'T AGRRO THEM TO ME!!!" "I DIDN'T, you STUPID MORON SQUISHY, YOU AGGROED THEM ONTO YOU!") And stuff along those lines.

Lady Erighan · Apr 26, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetail Trickster

Ectoplasmic inflation ftw!
Figures. I finally gather my resolve to get my monk up and seared and all, and this happens. Now I'll like... have to play.... T_T

This patch didn't make it that much harder to get to the Forge because most groups aquired the book just before they entered the Forge anyway. So it's only going to take a little bit longer to clear the 4-5 groups that surround the outer perimeter.

Josh · Apr 26, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon Shadowking

Ok, so I think I get from this thread that A-Net has nerfed ORO five man gear farm, book farming in FoW, etc... So I'm with Snowman here:

WHY ISN'T IT DOCUMENTED??

I looked on Guildwars.com... updates page... no mention. Guildwiki seems to be down, or at least it's not working for me. Anyway, my point is: Why did I learn this from GwGuru instead of the regular site? I mean what the heck!

Personally, I'm sort of mixed feelings about the update. PuGs are gonna be REALLY hard to find with any skill. As if us tanks weren't misunderstood already, this is going to cause a LOT of bad blood between us poor tankers and everyone else. ("YOU STUPID TANK! Don'T AGRRO THEM TO ME!!!" "I DIDN'T, you STUPID MORON SQUISHY, YOU AGGROED THEM ONTO YOU!") And stuff along those lines.

It's not a nerf, it's a fix.

Ken Dei · Apr 26, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

About friggin time they nerfed that exploit.

Akhilleus · Apr 26, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

what annoys me is that anet is constantly "improving" the AI of the enemies; yet henchman AI remains at a level of incompitence rivaled only by the french military. they stand idly by, scratching their heads in dismay at the onslought, while they stand helplessly in a meteor shower/maelstorm/ice storm/your AoE of choice. and then when the enemy AI breaks off from henchman AoE skills, they henchmen chase them into the farthest corners of tyria, bringing various other assorted creatures down upon your party.
i'm all for increasing the AI of monsters, but for gods sake, its like the henchmen were recruited out of a special ed class...seeing as how they lower our xp/gold/drops just as much as any other human player, they need improvements. especially since (and only god knows how its even possible) many human PuG players make henchmen look like nobel laureates.

EternalTempest · Apr 26, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

what annoys me is that anet is constantly "improving" the AI of the enemies; yet henchman AI remains at a level of incompitence rivaled only by the french military. they stand idly by, scratching their heads in dismay at the onslought, while they stand helplessly in a meteor shower/maelstorm/ice storm/your AoE of choice. and then when the enemy AI breaks off from henchman AoE skills, they henchmen chase them into the farthest corners of tyria, bringing various other assorted creatures down upon your party.
i'm all for increasing the AI of monsters, but for gods sake, its like the henchmen were recruited out of a special ed class...seeing as how they lower our xp/gold/drops just as much as any other human player, they need improvements. especially since (and only god knows how its even possible) many human PuG players make henchmen look like nobel laureates.

From the radio interview, they stated they there focus is on henchmen AI. He stated that PvE with henchie's is part of the game and they will be actively working on this even after

I disagree with Anet on this part but in the radio interview, Factions should be much better with henchmen (the goal it is doable with henchmen) but they don't have the resource's to do work with C1 at this time (and sounds like there moving on) and re-balance the zone's and missions for tweaking c1 henchmen. Aka from here on out they should be fine to bring along but C1 will have to strugle.

Stabber · Apr 26, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiken

and with some of the nasties in FoW and other places 1-2 hit killing party members it turns into a quick death.

Hunter has already given a fine answer to your post, and I just want to respond to this one sentence -- if any mob is killing you in two hits, then you have an absolutely terrible prot monk in your team. The only ones who can do this reliably are the Abyssal/Bladed Aatxe type monsters anyway, which are very easy to prepare for as they don't just randomly sprout from the ground like many other FoW/UW mobs.

----

Unrelatedly, I have always maintained that PvE mobs should be simulations of semi-skilled PvP players. The AI is still very exploitable as the mobs don't realize when they are being ineffective and have no concept of shutdowns or target prioritization. Granted, the PvE mobs often do have unfair advantages, both in numbers and levels, but at the end of the day they are still AI. Figure out the AI and develop a counter. Unlike PvP, this can be done offline.

PvE as it currently stands, even post-bundle-aggro-fix, is too easy. There is only one mission (THK), and only a few quests (LDD, DNKP, 4 horsemen), that present any real challenge. Call me old fashioned, but I like to play games where my victory is not guaranteed.